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Bill Smith
Member
Posts: 692

Hope this becomes interesting

Here is one to start you off................Alan Dennison..............liked the heel not the hero.

Here is number two..........................Shirley Crabtree............what can I say?????????

and number three.............................Pat Roach.....................Give em the brummegem bump

August 12, 2014 at 4:56 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Hack
Moderator
Posts: 2632

I agree with Bill about Alan Dennison. A good baddy, but so sickly good at times.


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British wrestling - great characters but the plot was always a bit of a mystery.

August 13, 2014 at 11:23 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CHRIS NEWMAN
Member
Posts: 339

The dichotomy or enigma if you prefer, is though, that some of the all-time Heels ended Heroes anyway. Not as blue-eyes (cos in Kendo's case they turned red anyway) but as highly popular wrestlers which almost in a way, paradoxically defeats the idea of a villain.

Kendo was rightly revered in the end, worshipped by some fans in fact.  Fellow mask The Zebra Kid was also held in high esteem.

Then of course there was Jimmy Breaks & Cyanide Sid Cooper. I suppose with any of that lot you choose whether you want them to be Heroes or Villains or not - despite what they were supposed to be. Doesn't much matter anyway. All of 'em being superb either way.

Great topic though Bill. Maybe a few more ideas may come in from other members & add something further to the discussion.   Greetings From Chris N.

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August 13, 2014 at 1:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

matey dave
Member
Posts: 1143

at wembley in early 60s we used to cheer the villians quiet loudly which used to get grins from them and back chat added to all. semus donlevy was one who we cheered on, excellent sense of humour. though on a return match with steve viedor he fought completely clean and wrestled. he was very good at straight wrestling. i believe steve logan could wrestle but not what promotors wanted

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blessed are the pacemakers

really do need my medication

more tea vicar and another jammy dodger

nurse, i need changing and my complan has gone cold

close friend of gladys the impaler

August 13, 2014 at 3:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

David Mantell
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Posts: 2543

Kendo did wrestle as a blue-eye on occasion - for starters, the third and final TV  match in the 1971 feud with Billy Howes.  He and Steve Viedor had a one night stand in '77 as a tag team to beat heel opponents (George Gillette reportedly labeled KN & SV a "strange and unholy alliance".)  Kendo also went blue-eye in '78 for a while after his Xmas '77 unmasking ceremony, wrestling Bronco Wells and Rex Strong and coming to Kung Fu's aid.  He had one last stint as a goody in his Battle Of The Kendos feud with Bill "King Kendo" Clarke in 1981.

August 13, 2014 at 6:31 PM Flag Quote & Reply

David Mantell
Member
Posts: 2543

Hack at August 13, 2014 at 11:23 AM

I agree with Bill about Alan Dennison. A good baddy, but so sickly good at times.


I like the storyline with Alan Dennison turning good, having his soul saved by being impressed by his opponent the teenage Dynamite Kid and being inspired by him to become a better man and making friends with the youngster, then later on taking over coaching of his cousin Young David from Ted Betley and getting involved in the Jim Breaks vs Young David British Welterweight title feud, eventually challenging Breaks himself and becoming champion!

August 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

David Mantell
Member
Posts: 2543

Another villain who gradually went blue-eye: Colin Joynson.

August 13, 2014 at 6:38 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Mad Mac
Member
Posts: 317

Brian Maxine.

August 14, 2014 at 1:36 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CHRIS NEWMAN
Member
Posts: 339

Interesting Stuff from Matey Dave. Nice one Dave.

Also a good revisit and timely reminder of some off the Kendo Nagasaki story from David Mantell. Now here's a man who knows his way around Nagger's history. Nice Dennison recollection as well David.

Very best wishes to both you Davids & everyone else ...... Chris.

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August 14, 2014 at 2:24 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CHRIS NEWMAN
Member
Posts: 339

Good shout for Maxine as well Mad Mac.

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August 14, 2014 at 2:26 AM Flag Quote & Reply

david franklin
Member
Posts: 286

Interesting that most "heel-blue-eye" turns are actually a much longer journey than that, because nearly every one of  them is infact "blue-eye -- heel--blue-eye".

"Matey Dave" touches on a very interesting situation as well. Wrestlers who worked as heels in one area and as blue-eyes in another, and sometime this went on for many years.
Many villains were heroes in their own town, and in Bristol we booed Marty Jones for years, when the rest of the country was cheering him.
Slightly different (and perhaps a little too "up to date") was the "fall out feud" between The Liverpool Lads, Doc Dean & Rob Brookside. In the West Country Doc Dean was the heel, but others tell me that elsewhere they booed Robby Brookside. 

August 14, 2014 at 4:33 AM Flag Quote & Reply

David Mantell
Member
Posts: 2543

Doc Dean had previously been a heel in the early 90s.  There is footage from Eurosport of Doc Dean as a heel teamed with Jimmy Ocean to be DQ's against Danny Collins and John Harvey in France.  (worth watching as evidence of Danny's popularity in France.)

Robbie Brookside's heel turn on Doc Dean was in '95.  His interviews for Simon Garfield's book were before that and make mention of Robbie and Doc reuniting and Robbie having faced Doc in a ladder match.  This was from Doc'e earlier heel run.

August 14, 2014 at 1:13 PM Flag Quote & Reply

David Mantell
Member
Posts: 2543

David Mantell at August 13, 2014 at 6:38 PM

Another villain who gradually went blue-eye: Colin Joynson.

Colin Joynson's heavy duty forearm smashing style actually made more sense as a brutal thug heel teamed with smarmy heel Steve Haggerty in the Dangermen - when wrestling as a blue-eye, the forearms could actually lose him crowd sympathy as was starting to happen in the Dec '76 Solihull bout vs Kendo (Kent Walton picks up on this - "Joynson doing well with the power stuff, but I think the crowd want to see more wrestling.")


In the late 70s, Joynson could be one thing on one night and another thing on another.  He could tag with Big Daddy as the blue-eye in peril against Haystacks one night and the next night be the snide heel partner of Haystacks against Daddy and Tony StClair and the next night after that wrestle Daddy in a clean match similar to the Sept '77 Daddy vs John Elijah TV match.


However, when new super villain "The Iron Greek" Spiros Arion brutally bloodied Joynson in a TV match, it garnered Joynson so much victim sympathy from the public that he could never wrestle as a heel again, and he spent the 1980s as a pure blue-eye.

August 15, 2014 at 2:33 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CHRIS NEWMAN
Member
Posts: 339

Very good  story mix from the various contributors. However we come to expect nothing else from the WH Membership.

The good versus evil theme - in not only history - but many forms of entertainment is of course timeless.

It also lent itself perfectly (and with equally perfect timing) to the hybrid Sporting Theatre of British Pro Wrestling's very best years. And as Carly Simon once sang it " Nobody Does It Better ".

So many variational themes used in British Pro Wrestling history on good versus bad. Goes almost without saying really, that the very concept was right at the core of it all & made for great television.

This before things noticeably & finally began to lose an edge.

It also provided many a happy and interesting evening down on the Halls - even keeping the attendances going for awhile after someone yanked the telly plug from the wall. It happened. Therefore punters had to leave their armchairs and make the effort if they could - to attend a venue or go without. 

Who were though, the ultimate Heels? Whether they turned on them later (became good guys or cult heroes) or not? Some did, some didn't.

I reckon for staying villainous and being famous (or infamous) for just that - how about Dirty Jack Pye? & of course McManus.

However, the waters become muddied a little even with Mick. Him being the fabled "Man We Loved To Hate".

I mean we'd hang on his every word in co-commentary if coupled with the voice of wrestling - one K Walton.

Alternatively if he - McManus, was ever interviewed in a TV chat situation or popped up in a guest cameo on a light entertaiment prog.

You would also be on Mick's side (for a change) if he was in some way representing "us" in a televised tournament where honour is obviously at stake, against the foreign invader etc.

I think though that the 2 geezers I have just mentioned, were ultimately terrific heel value. That from what we either saw for ourselves - or what we know - or has been written, reported or eye witnessed. The latter being always a great primary  source.

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August 15, 2014 at 4:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Tom H
Member
Posts: 302

"Iron Jaw" Joe Murphy was a real bad boy when I saw him wrestle on independant bills, but became a good guy when he joined joint promotions. Joe was certainly the crowd favourite in a drawn match with Jackie Pallo at Ilford baths but anybody taking on Pallo,at the time, would have been the crowd favourite

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August 15, 2014 at 9:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply

CHRIS NEWMAN
Member
Posts: 339

The Iron Jaw Murphy contribution from Tom H, keeps the topic bubbling along very nicely. A good point here is that with 2 heels possibly on duty sometimes, the punters feel obliged to back one of them, even if it's a case of hero for one night only.


The mention of Jackie TV Pallo is also interesting. In that Jackie became like his nemesis Mick McManus, a huge star-attraction in the Heels division.  Muttering Mick was fully deserving of his fame/infamy etc. One of the most important of all wrestlers.

To me though, the beauty of Pallo's villainy, was not so much protesting innocence as if butter wouldn't melt in his mouth - but having a certain tongue in cheek humour within his Mr TV image & strutting arrogance.

An arch showman, who didn't seem to give a stuff what people thought  ... (in fact he actually wanted punters angry - like all good heels - great for business) .... but who played his part superbly. Always giving 100% it seemed to me, as a dedicated pro and prolific traveller up and down the nation packing 'em in.


What great days they were.

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August 15, 2014 at 12:01 PM Flag Quote & Reply

david franklin
Member
Posts: 286

Joe Murphy is an interesting person to fit in here, because I only ever remember seeing him has a "blue eye". A hard man admittedly but in my area always a man who played by the rules, and this was the Murphy shown on TV in the 1960's as well.
I'm sure he hung his boots up for a while because the next time I saw or heard of him in the 1970's he was tagging with Sid Cooper and being billed as "Mad Dog" Murphy.
Sadly not the Joe Murphy I remember so well, wrestling a 10 round drawn classic with Jack Dempsey only a decade earlier. :(

August 15, 2014 at 3:59 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Tom H
Member
Posts: 302

Hi David, I would have loved to have watched the Dempsey v Murphy match.                                                                        The A-Z says that Murphy won the European TagTeam Title with Fred Van Lotta. I saw both Murphy and Van Lotta on British Wrestling Federation bills and disqualification was not unusual for both wrestlers.


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Lightweight belt holder

Welterweight belt holder.

August 17, 2014 at 4:58 AM Flag Quote & Reply

matey dave
Member
Posts: 1143

we need to be realistic and understand that the wrestler were often told what part to play

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blessed are the pacemakers

really do need my medication

more tea vicar and another jammy dodger

nurse, i need changing and my complan has gone cold

close friend of gladys the impaler

August 17, 2014 at 7:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

SaxonWolf
Member
Posts: 1883

Big Daddy went from being a big wrestler, neither good guy or bad guy, to being part of the monster villain tag team with Giant Haystacks, to being the "mum's and dad's favourite", so he covered all bases!!

August 17, 2014 at 8:05 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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