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Forum Home > Talk Wrestling > BILL ANALYSIS late 1950's

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899
Any ideas on this one welcome. I thought the Mask was Sandy Orford. Was the intention that he wrestled twice in one night.


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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 6, 2018 at 5:19 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

Fascinating choice, Ron.


Well, it would have to be Sandy because Sandy sitting in the dressing room would not be wanting to see someone else ripping off his gimmick.  But the fans would spot this instantly.  We have seen on this site how many of our knowledgable Members went to this venue.

Yes we need to analyse.  And hypothesise.

Now, The Mask wore full body coverage.  I can't believe Sandy would have adapted his wrestling stance so considerably as to be unrecognised.


How about this.  The fans were onto The Mask's identity and had perhaps heckled on an earlier occasion, shouting out his identity.  Sandy rustles up a friend to wear the outfit for the night and then even appears ringside maskless to show he is not The Mask.  The full body coverage was designed to allow different wrestlers to wear the outfit, as Eddie has explained about Les Diables Rouges.


The bill ceratinly reeks of mischief with masked men in the double main event.  This would usually be avoided on JP bills.  There has to be some kind of link between the two bouts.


Then again, maybe one of them simply no-showed?  But surely they wouldn't deliberately have published only to cancel.


Do we have results for this bill?


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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

I knew you would be onto this one Anglo and you make some great points with the conspiracy Favorite.

Yes Both Masks won on the night so they did turn up.

Hard to believe this was nearly sixty years ago and I am not so sure Bernard was going in 1959.  With it being before my time I cannot say if Orford was able to substantially change his style.

When I found the bill only yesterday my eyes nearly popped out of my head in disbelief. Shows I have learned something on here.

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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 6, 2018 at 2:36 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

Working on Anglo's theory of a conspiracy by the wrestlers/Promoter I think I have found something to fit.

A bit of background first as maybe like myself Mask and Black Mask can be so confusing.

They were both major players at the end of the Bomber Bates Ghoul era and Sandy Orford was THE MASK. The BLACK MASK was George Nuttall from Stockport and even went on TV as a masked man. He wrestled in a Black Leotard. Anglo suggests in all this that one of the wrestlers had an accomplice. Well George Nuttall had a brother Bert. I have no idea of his build but as Anglo says , with an all over costume he might pass as THE MASK.

Two weeks after the event the two brothers traveled up to Newcastle. As usual George played the Black Mask. Bert was on the same bill as himself. Was it the ultimate joke on the fans. Had Bert been the substitute Mask two weeks before.



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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 7, 2018 at 4:15 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bernard Hughes
Member
Posts: 2415

You could be right Ron, sorry this was after I had left those parts.

Can't help I 'm afraid.

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March 7, 2018 at 8:41 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

Yes Ron, all very guessy but certainly all fits.  Nice work.


I suppose to bolster the theory we would need to establish that Bert was regularly appearing on the same bill as Black Mask?


I have to say that Bert is described as tall and slim.


Black Mask was one of our biggest challenges to identify his career about seven years ago.  We had also thought he was Ted Betley.  We then also traced George Nuttall's boxing career;  and then a few unmasked 1963 to 65 appearances billed as himself.  Certainly the first masked man on tv.


In fact, I wonder whether Bert ever wrestled AGAINST Black Mask?

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 7, 2018 at 10:46 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

The Black Mask and his brother Bert Nuttall must have traveled together a lot. Here they are again in the previous month. And of course Sandy Orford is with Black mask yet again.


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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 7, 2018 at 11:25 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

Compelling evidence!  I think we've cracked it.   But still the WHY isn't quite there but something at least along the lines I mentioined is probably the case.


Great fun!

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 7, 2018 at 1:22 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

Completely agree Anglo , no way we can ever know unless an old wrestler can tell us but the main thing is the Fun.

Lot's of viewers but many thought maybe they could not contribute. Well you can.

I am going to push on with another bill that might instigate several thoughts. I am going to see what anyone thinks about this one first before I come up with some answers.


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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 7, 2018 at 1:42 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Bernard Hughes
Member
Posts: 2415

The Pacherdema is a funny one. No such word in the English language.

Nearest I can find is Pachyderma, means thickening of the skin.

Is this a callus I see before me?

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March 7, 2018 at 4:21 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

Yes, looks like they were aiming for Pachyderm, which means a thick-skinned animal like a rhino or an elephant.  Since this was an "international" bill, must we assume The Pachederma was a foreigner?


The promoter was Frank Yexley.  New to me, but a google instantly brings up even with a photo Frank Maurice James Yexley (born 1911).


This time I am not on Ron's wavelength:  it just seems a run of the mill independent bill with little sparkle, but Frank has managed to secure big name Vic Hesselle.


What are you seeing, Ron?

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 8, 2018 at 2:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Hack
Moderator
Posts: 2603

All this Mask and Black Mask stuff has got my brain hurting. Fascinating stuff Ron and Anglo Italian, thanks.


The Pachyderm (that's the usual billing) is an interesting one. The earliest I came across him was1958 and he worked on Joint shows for a couple of years. I haven't trawled through Ron's Galleries so there may be earlier appearances.


Then in April 1962 he's on a Paul Lincoln show and was unmasked. Under the mask was Bill Coverdale.

We know that Bill Coverdale went on to become The Ghoul.


The 1950s Ghoul, John Bates, died in 1961. We don't know if he worked up to the time of his death.


I don't think this was an independent bill. I think there was a connection between Yexley and Joint and he was using Joint wrestlers. He may have bought the entire bill off a Joint member (Dale Martin?) to present under his own name. We have other examples of Dale Martin doing this.


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British wrestling - great characters but the plot was always a bit of a mystery.

March 8, 2018 at 3:44 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

A bit of background first as I am at an advantage. I don't think it was an Independent Bill although I am unsure what constitutes what in those days. Skegness had been struggling as a holiday resort and Yexley apparently was an MC on a lot of Midland Wrestling Venues. He was a Nottingham man. He bargained with the council to let him do about ten weeks.

Some of the council did not want wrestling on the basis that it was grunt and groan and fixed and would of wished for a Roller Rink. You see , the venue was open air and could accomodtae 3000. They were out voted and Yexley was to get 60 percent and the council 40 percent.

After 8 weeks the venture failed and maybe you would like to guess why.  But with regards the wrestlers used lots oif Wryton men were used such as Bartelli, Foley , Ernie Riley , Cadman and Billy Robinson.

Notice also that British Wrestling Board of Control phrase on the bill. I always associated that sell as Billy Riley and perhaps Jack Atherton. R and A seemed to have a unique arrangement with Wryton.

Riley was the matchmaker at Colne i think which takes me to the same year there and Vic Hessle versus Pachyderm.


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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 8, 2018 at 3:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

I can't think why for the life of me, Hack, you would have thought this was Dale Martin?  Too much February sunshine?

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 8, 2018 at 9:01 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

Hal Miquet!   I love that.  Back to the silent movies.  He really wanted to conceal his identity, didn't he?

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 8, 2018 at 9:17 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

And you get your ticket at the pet shop!


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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 8, 2018 at 9:18 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Hack
Moderator
Posts: 2603

Anglo Italian at March 8, 2018 at 9:01 AM

I can't think why for the life of me, Hack, you would have thought this was Dale Martin?  Too much February sunshine?

I think you must be right Anglo Italian, this is never a Dale Martin bill.

To try and defend myself, a pathetically hopeless cause I admit, but .... I did say I thought it was a Joint show not an independent (not specifying DM to begin with); my train of thought then went along the lines that the one JP member we know did sell complete shows was Dale Martin.

Hanging my head in shame I shall now go and lie down in a darkened room.

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British wrestling - great characters but the plot was always a bit of a mystery.

March 8, 2018 at 9:35 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1899

Back to the Skegness bill they got their tickets from Jimmy's Joke Shop or the Cherry Corner Snack Bar.

The council did quite nicely out of the venture but still were glad to get shut of Yexley. In the interval Yexley actaully let four kids have a go in the ring 2 x 3 minute rounds each. Must have been pure fantasy for the little guys. Our Pachyderm was described in the press as USA and 20 stones. The council paid for extra addmision boxes and Stewards and Jack Atherton did some of the refereeing. They council also say it cost them a little to close the skating rink on Mondays but overall still made some good money.

Can anyone guess what caused Yexley to make a loss.

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HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

March 8, 2018 at 10:43 AM Flag Quote & Reply

I Pringle heavy middleweight champion
Member
Posts: 175

HI all,

Have found afew bills regarding THE PACHYDERM ,late 50s/ early 60s and all seem to be involves RILEY and ATHERTON promotions. Hope that throws more on the subject.

Regards Ian Pringle.

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March 8, 2018 at 1:04 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2079

You are forgiven, Hack, good to have you back.


Ron now has us on fiendish lateral thinking tasks so your off-the-wall logic might just work ...

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

March 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM Flag Quote & Reply

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