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Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2057

Moving on from the discussion Bernard and I were having about wrestlers' weights...


Some wrestlers seemed regularly to be billed at wrong weights.


Two that stuck out were Klondyke Jake and Roger Wells.  Both were regularly billed as 20 stones but seemed not even 16 stones to me.  Anyone (dis)agree?


Robby Baron was billed as a welterweight throughout his career jet must have been nearly 14 stones in his last few years.  Saw him in embarrassingly mismatched contests with Julien Morice.  The promoters didn't notice Young Robby grow.


Honey Boy Zimba I mentioned today was apparently 15st 7lbs but often featured in light-heavyweight bouts.


I have no idea what Masambula weighed - he seemed to wrestle everyone.


And Steve Logan featured in all those heavyweight bouts as well as being British Heavy-Middleweight champion.


Does anyone else have similar memories?

--

Still trying to work out what was going on!

February 6, 2018 at 6:03 PM Flag Quote & Reply

powerlock
Member
Posts: 1353
I certainly think the weight discrepancies got worse in the late 1960s onwards . I know for instance Peter Kaye was supposed to have trimmed down to middleweight but he was a pretty big middleweight as far as I could remember
February 6, 2018 at 6:34 PM Flag Quote & Reply

david franklin
Member
Posts: 285

A match I saw advertised that underlined the lack of credibility as years went by was when Johnny Czeslaw (a mid-heavyweight for all of his career, who often went in against heavyweights) fought Brian Maxine for the British Mioddleweight Title. Everything about British wrestling was nonsensical by then anyway. :(

February 7, 2018 at 3:29 AM Flag Quote & Reply

SaxonWolf
Member
Posts: 1862

How accurate were weights anyway?  I imagine that when the Mountevans rules first came in, they were properly recorded and stuck to, for a while.  But after that?

I am sure our weights were more accurate than our US cousins, where everyone has a few inches extra in height added, and about 20 pounds in weight.

February 7, 2018 at 5:00 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Ron Historyo
Member
Posts: 1851

I think the trouble is they had long careers and there were books with height and weight statistics and no doubt Kent Walton had some sort of point of reference.

With TV it was even more difficult to guess the height. I saw McManus billed from 12-3 to 13-3 (I think) and he no doubt started at under 11 stones. With a thick beefy back he would have some weight at the end but he was so small.

Logan must have been 5-8 or a little more when young and topped 14 stones. Not enough to really be in with Rocky Wall but enough for Marino,

In that old wrestling footage of Kellet and Dennison going for a run there did not look too much in height and Dennison was small and 13-3 at peak. His partner Ted Heath was apparently 5-4 and looked bigger as he was powerfully built. Kellet was over 14 stones but seemingly not so tall but how tall I am not sure.

Andy Robin again went in with the heavies and was strong and somewhere in the 15 stones region but I believe was only about 5-7.

A 1970 Kendo was listed as 15-3 and had aspirations of Howes's European Mid heavy Title but Kayfabe could not prove he was European. I would put him at 6-1 but in his Brian Dixon days he must have been over 17 stones.

Even without TV with the spotlight on Live I thought they looked big but out of the ring some were not as big as we thought.

It's a very difficult judgement but very normal for a wrestler to gain 2 stones in a career , even a small wrestler.

Not all of course , Johnny Saint did not change much.

--

HISTORYO

Time Detective and Multi Heritage Award Winner

February 7, 2018 at 5:02 AM Flag Quote & Reply

SaxonWolf
Member
Posts: 1862

Good answer Ron, and yes of course most people put on the pounds as they get older.  Kendo is an interesting one, because he looked a solid build in the late 60's, then when his TV career took off, he became leaner, and in fact looking back on some of his TV bouts in the 70's, he looks positively skinny.


His mid-late 80's TV, with Blondie Barratt, he looks like a proper heavyweight. 


Being up in a ring, made people look taller, and of course the high up angle of the TV camera made them look taller as well.

We often talk about Haystacks and how tall he was really, and I think we all agree that he did clap the weight on as he got older, and also lose some inches in height.  The funny TV clip of him slamming a TV presenter, he looks like a real giant.  A few weeks ago, I saw a picture taken of him in a ring (empty building) holding apart William (Steve) Regal and Triple H, I think regal said they were wrestling in the UK and Haystacks just called by the building in the daytime, to say hello.  Regal and Triple H wanted to do a publicity shot and Regal asked Haystacks if he would like to be in it.

Anyway, the point of all that was that in the photo, Haystacks doesn't appear taller than Regal or Triple H, who I assume to be 6ft 2 to a max 6ft 4 ???

February 7, 2018 at 9:05 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bernard Hughes
Member
Posts: 2381

Hi Anglo, now you are starting to make some sense on weights, unlike on the other thread.

Just a point Hack, Could we/you ask some of the retired wrestlers that you know  or who come on here (Paul) just how often anyone asked them their weight?

I bet that it wasn't too often after they had started their career.

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February 7, 2018 at 9:21 AM Flag Quote & Reply

frank thomas
Member
Posts: 1531
Think Jackie Pallo summed it up perfectly in "you grunt I'll groan" when where discussing championship matches, when he said: 'it's not like boxing where you get a weigh in, have you ever seen a wrestler weigh in? " No! Of course not, because if he's little he's a lightweight, if he's average size, he's a middleweight and if he's big, a heavyweight! By the way, i saw Jon Cortez win the world middleweight title in a KO tournament at Liverpool Stadium in 1978, and two weeks later was introduced by the MC as "the speedy Dulwich lightweight, Jon Cortez!" Smoke and mirrors indeed!
February 7, 2018 at 9:38 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Mad Mac
Member
Posts: 302

Two glaring examples for me: 

1) Mick McMichael, who went (Waltonism alert!) "up and down through the weights" but never looked any different

2) Colin Joynson challenging Marty Jones for the Mid-Heavyweight title even though he looked no different to the way he had for years. I remember thinking that he might have been a Mid-Heavyweight when he was about 14.....

February 7, 2018 at 11:03 AM Flag Quote & Reply

John
Member
Posts: 140

powerlock at February 6, 2018 at 6:34 PM

I certainly think the weight discrepancies got worse in the late 1960s onwards . I know for instance Peter Kaye was supposed to have trimmed down to middleweight but he was a pretty big middleweight as far as I could remember

In November 1977 there was a bout on TV where Peter 'Tally-Ho' Kaye challenged the Dynamite Kid for the British Lightweight title. I was just 12 years old and even I could tell that Kaye looked significantly heavier then the Dynamite Kid. I remember that it was a very good bout though. Also, Alan Dennison, who Kent Walton had often said weighed 14 stone 2 lbs, the light-heavyweight limit, took on and beat Jim Breaks for the British Welterweight title in 1980. I remember they had some very entertaining bouts on TV against each other. Do we forgive the promoters for lying to us about the wrestlers weights, if that lie was what it took to create some entertaining title bouts for us to watch.
--

Heavy-Middleweight Championship Belt Holder

February 7, 2018 at 2:54 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Paul
Member
Posts: 62

Pete Roberts was someone who could tussle with Marty Jones at Mid heavy one night and then be challenging Bridges for the Heavywieght title the next. 

Marty Jones, towards the end of his career, was billed at heavyweight, and probably had grown into being one. 

February 7, 2018 at 3:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

The Ost
Member
Posts: 43

Bernard Hughes at February 7, 2018 at 9:21 AM

Hi Anglo, now you are starting to make some sense on weights, unlike on the other thread.

Just a point Hack, Could we/you ask some of the retired wrestlers that you know  or who come on here (Paul) just how often anyone asked them their weight?

I bet that it wasn't too often after they had started their career.

The answers I've received from retired wrestlers are;

"The never weighed us."

and

"The promoter asked me once how much I weighed. That was it."

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February 7, 2018 at 3:20 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Bernard Hughes
Member
Posts: 2381

Thank you to The Ost.

That was exactly the point that I made early on  in this Debate (?)

I knew that wrestlers were not usually asked what their weight was but I am pleased that someone else backed up that knowledge.

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February 7, 2018 at 5:09 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Philip Kenyon
Member
Posts: 246

Hi Bernard,

I was never asked my weight, but there again I was a heavyweight of some 105 kg, so nobody cared.

Cheers

--

Mike Agusta (Phil Kenyon)

Wrestling Heritage D'Orazio Award Holder

Wrestling Heritage Vic Award Holder

Wrestling Heritage Pallo Snr. Award Holder

Heavy Middleweight belt Holder

Heritage Starr Award Holder
February 9, 2018 at 5:42 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2057

Wow, that makes you the Kilogram Champ, Mike!  How unusual to hear kgs mentioned in our context.

Let me see:  16st 7lbs?

--

Still trying to work out what was going on!

February 9, 2018 at 10:09 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Bernard Hughes
Member
Posts: 2381

Yes Anglo, good calculator you have got.

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February 9, 2018 at 5:16 PM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2057

In my head, Bernard, otherwise I wouldn't have asked!  Wait till you see me on Countdown.

--

Still trying to work out what was going on!

February 10, 2018 at 1:32 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Philip Kenyon
Member
Posts: 246

Anglo Italian at February 9, 2018 at 10:09 AM

Wow, that makes you the Kilogram Champ, Mike!  How unusual to hear kgs mentioned in our context.

Let me see:  16st 7lbs?

Hi Anglo.

Yes, when we forget the ounces, absolutely correct.

Sorry been abroad for much too long!

Cheers

 


--

Mike Agusta (Phil Kenyon)

Wrestling Heritage D'Orazio Award Holder

Wrestling Heritage Vic Award Holder

Wrestling Heritage Pallo Snr. Award Holder

Heavy Middleweight belt Holder

Heritage Starr Award Holder
February 10, 2018 at 3:12 AM Flag Quote & Reply

david franklin
Member
Posts: 285

It's interesting to hear, with the “progress” of wrestling over the last 50 years how “weights” do seem to have become less important.

I wonder if weights became less important because wrestling became less credible?

or perhaps

Wrestling became less credible because weights became less important?


I certainly remember as a youngster being very impressed when on every show at the Colston Hall in Bristol MC Francis P Blake announced the exact weight of each competitor when he was introducing the match. Was he making it all up? Did they simply tell him their weight? Did they have scales in the dressing room?

None of this really matter because we all believed him and he made it seem to be more of a serious competion.

It would be interesting to know if the Colston Hall was the only venue to follow this practice?

February 10, 2018 at 3:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Anglo Italian
Moderator
Posts: 2057

Fascinating.  I never witnessed such precision, David.

And I never saw Frankie Blake as anything other than lazy and imprecise.

So your post comes as a shock in both respects.

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Still trying to work out what was going on!

February 10, 2018 at 3:55 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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